Topic: Lithium/Solar/Inverter Energy Upgrade (Read 5779 times) previous topic - next topic

I upgraded our new WonderRTB energy system after we took delivery of our new WonderRTB from VanCityRV in Kalispell, MT. We ordered it last April with the stock lead acid batteries, no solar panels, stock 1000 watt inverter, and no genset, having decided we wanted much more than what LTV offers with the energy upgrade, and particularly not wanting flex panels or the genset.

After picking it up from VanCityRV, we drove it to AMSolar to do the upgrade. They had it six working days. They removed the 1000watt Xantrex inverter/charger, the two lead acid batteries as well as the compartment they were in, and the Sterling 20amp DC-DC charger. In it's place they installed a Victron 3000 watt inverter, 6 100 watt Zamp rigid solar panels, a Redarc 50 amp DC-DC charger, a BM712 battery monitor and the Victron Multi-display, along with cutoff switches for the alternator, solar, and inverter, and a master battery cutoff near the batteries. and three Lifeblue 200 amps Lithium batteries. In addition, breakers were also installed for power source as well, and the solar panels were also fused for protection. They also put a 30 amp breaker from the shore power line. They had no experience with the Redarc charger, and it had a strange propensity to drain the chassis battery a bit before it cutoff, so they installed a Victron low voltage cutoff connected to the alternator so when the ignition is turned off, the cutoff disconnects the chassis from the Redarc DC-DC charger. They also rewired, as needed the AC panel so all outlets and the A/C and Microwave all are run off the inverter as well. They pretty much left everything as is, including the transfer switch that is fully wired up as if I had a generator (LTV builds them as if the genset will be installed even if you don't order it-I guess that makes it easier to add one later).

Our upgrade makes it different from the way most RV's are configured where you can turn the inverter off. In our case, it is always on because shore power also comes through the inverter rather than from a transfer switch since it has a built in switch. If there is not enough amps in the shore power connection, the inverter will add enough to cover it from the batteries. At first I was concerned but then realized I got 600 amps of Lithium plugged into shore power, so the batteries will stay charged anyway even if the inverter is on. This also affects the fridge if left in AUTO mode, it will always think it is one shore power since the AC is always inverted, so I'll have to manually place it in propane mode when dry camping or the batteries will drain. I will try out the new 2020 Dometic 3-way. I've never liked 3-ways, and if it doesn't cool to our satisfaction, I'll replace it next year with a Novacool compressor based fridge.

We decided to place all components in the rear garage, as it was the most logical place since that's where all LTV's connections terminated. They did have to run new cables for the solar, and did so from the area above the microwave, down to the floor, through a run under the shower and step, then down through the floor into another run to the garage.

Complete control is through the display, as well as over the internet through Victron's portal which allows control using a laptop or smartphone.

This was not inexpensive, so don't ask. But it does exactly what I wanted it to do, all in the background, with no maintenance to speak of. Plug and play, more or less.

I highly recommend AMSolar. They could have taken shortcuts and I'd never know it. A good example is the Redarc issue. They discovered that while testing the voltages. Few shops would have actually even figured it out. You do get what you pay for.

For anyone thinking about updating there rig with such a system, let me know I'll be glad to discuss the details (other than cost-if you want to know that, pm me).

What advantages are you getting out of this system compared to the stock system?

The stock system has 2 6vdc lead acid batteries for a total of 220amps, of which only half is available without damaging the batteries, so, 110 available amps, and no solar. That's not much if you need to, say, use a CPAP machine, you may have just enough to last a night.  600 amps of lithium is equivalent to 12 12vdc 100amp lead acid batteries and would weigh almost 700lbs, or 24 6vdc lead acid batteries and those would weight about 1600lbs. There wouldn't be room for them in any event. The three 200 amp lithium batteries weigh about 160lbs with the same 600amp capacity since they can be fully discharged without harm to the batteries.

The optional Flex panels are a poor substitute for rigid glass panels. They turn yellow and become even more inefficient as they age in a couple of years, and they get very hot since they are plastered to the roof, that heat actually can damage the roof, and is also transferred inside the coach. Since they are glued on, they are a major pain to remove when they will need to be replaced-which they will. Rigid glass panels last the life of the vehicle and are warranted 25 years.

The stock inverter can only power the TV and little elseThe Victron 3000 watt inverter/chareger can power everything. In fact, it's like it's always plugged in to shore power.

LTV's optional upgrade package (stock on Unity and Serenity) bump the batteries to 2 100amp AGM's, which is actually less than the stock 6vdcx2 on the Wonder. The bump up to a 2000 watt inverter lets you use the microwave, but not for long with only 100amps available. For the cost it's not worth it as you can bump it up to 3000watt for not much more and then you can run anything you want provided you have sufficient amps to do so.

And, with 600amps of stored energy, the likelihood of needing a generator is zero for me (we don't boondock when we expect to have to use the A/C but I still can run the A/C for around 4 hours or so depending on the temperature if need be).

Those are the major advantages of the upgrade I did, as well as the disadvantages of the stock system.

That is an impressive system (!!!), and one we would like to pursue.  We will be living in a 2021 Wonder RTB for 18-24 months as we drive from the US to Patagonia.  Almost always dry camping.  Have you found there to be anything problematic with your new system, or anything you might have done differently.  I know you said not to ask, but could you give me a ballpark figure on how much a system like yours runs?  Thanks!

No, there is nothing I would do differently. But I would add a small Honda 2200i with a propane conversion kit as a backup. The main system would keep you going but in an emergency in a case traveling like you are planning I'd want a backup. It would only be used to recharge the batteries if that would ever be needed if you got stuck somewhere and had a week or bad weather and possibly never needed at all. Costs are a bit more difficult to estimate but in not ordering components I didn't want and would have ordered but for the upgrade (generator, solar, battery upgrade) and a solar tax credit the difference out of pocket was $6-7k. Actual costs was about $21k.

Thanks for your reply.  This post has been extremely helpful!  I will be reaching out to AM Solar about having a similar configuration done to our new LTV Wonder due in to us this coming February.  Thanks!

You should ask them for advice as the technology is changing rapidly. They may recommend the Color GX Touch 50 panel instead of the Color GX display, too.

Very interesting set up. We have done something similar on our catamaran (we live aboard) and are looking at what this kind of upgrade to a Wonder will do for us. We are currently in the market for a Wonder. My question is how well does the battery capacity you have chosen work for you in terms of AC run time and liveability. We have 1200Ah of lithium on the boat but also run a lot more air conditioning and such. Do you find 3000W inverter sufficient or are you actively managing loads when cooking and such (we are running 6000W but generally no issue)? Why a separate charger from the inverter? Victron's Multiplus does both and again has seamless integration. Where did you put the batteries??

I wish I could answer all your questions, but the reality of it is that we have not really extensively tested the upgrade because of Covid. I can answer a few though. The AC will run only about 3.5 to 4 hours as the AC uses about 153 DC amps per hour. It works fine for when we stop and need to take a break for an hour or two but for more than that you'd need to hook up. There is another AC unit I may upgrade to (ProAir) that is 12vdc that is about twice as efficient someday. The 30amp (3000 watt) inverter is more than sufficient. The separate charger is for the alternator. The inverter has a charger when on shore power only-it has no 12vdc charge capability. The batteries are in the garage (see photo above) in the black box on the streetside. Basically, we enlarged the OEM battery location to encompass the batteries and other components (cutoff's and breakers and solar controller/charger). Hope that helps.

We've got a bit more experience with our energy upgrade, so I thought I would update this answer. A typical night's energy usage including the microwave to heat dinner, an induction stove-top to heat soup, lights, water pump, and since it was in the mid 30F's, the furnace quite a lot, and since I used a CPAP and at the time did not have a 12vdc plug or adapter, I had to keep the inverter on (that uses 5 amps or so just while it's on), we found we used about 20% of our 600amp capacity. The next day, late in the fall, with partly cloudy skies (a high cirrus haze) the battery bank was up to 98%. I have since installed a 12vdc plug and obtained a 12vdc adapter for my CPAP that will be more efficient than using the inverter so this should be reduced substantially in the future. So, from my experience, 600amps is more than enough capacity since day use is offset by the  500watts of solar (little energy is used during the day) and most goes to recharge the batteries. The extra capacity gives me more backup for cloudy days than I'll likely ever use. Of course, this does not include the air conditioning. Even if I had enough capacity (I'm guessing abut 1600amps to run it all night), it would take all day to recharge them even with a 120amp charge that the inverter/charger is capable while plugged in. Solar won't cut it-it would take several days to bring them back to full charge. If I end up boondocking and needing the ac, I'll bring along a Honda 2200i converted to propane use. There's lots of room in the garage to store it and since it would run on propane, no smelly gas to store.

Thanks for sharing your latest experience with power consumption.  This confirms that we basically want to install the same type of system.  We are two months out from taking delivery, and I am nailing down the last details on our power system.

We did order the factory installed gas generator for backup.  If I understand correctly, you disconnected the shore power connection from the transfer switch and ran it directly to the inverter/charger.  With us having the generator already installed, does it sound correct that both the shore and generator would stay connected to the transfer switch, and the transfer switch then connected to the new inverter/charger?

Also, I am trying to understand how you installed the forward, driver's side solar panel?  How did you deal with the black tank vent pipe (and cap) that exits under that panel? 

Thanks,
Kyle

Even though I ordered my WonderRTB without a generator, LTV still wired it up as if it had one. So, all the wires were connected as if it was installed, including to the transfer switch from the electric hookup to shore power. I need to take a look at the transfer switch. I know they ran a 30 amp cable back to the rear into a new 30 amp breaker and then into the inverter and back to the breaker box up front. I think they simply disconnected and removed the line from the transfer switch to the front breaker box and replaced it with a 30 amp line from the transfer switch to a new 30 amp breaker in the garage near the inverter and from there to the inverter and from there back to the front breaker box but I need to take another look to be sure-it's been a while since I looked at it. I know they told me if I get a generator all I'd need to do is install it and the wiring would not change so that leads me to think that the route is the input to the shore power side, then from the transfer AC out to the breaker in the back, then to to inverter, and then back to the front breaker box, because if I added a generator, that would be how it had to be wired up to work without rewiring it.

The vent cap was removed, and about 1" was cut off the tube, then the cap was placed back on to lower it so the panel would be flush above it.

I'll get back as soon as I take a look at the connections as the unit is in storage right now.
GM

Gerald, at Q I looked on our roof with solar installer & he believes he could instal four 200w panels on our FTB.
By using taller panel stand-off in the back to clear the 2 tank vents. It would mean 114” of solid glass, front to rear.  Twice the watts would be nice, but also means larger solar wire, etc.  Some thing to consider.
I am going to install a 2000w Xantrex inverter.

Instead of raising the panels up, you may see if they could lower the vents instead. As far as the wire, I don' think you'd need to go larger than 8 or 6 gauge, and that's what you'd want to use anyway. It's not the amps-it is the voltage drop you need to avoid.
Gerald

Gerald,

Ok, trimming the exhaust pipe makes sense; and thanks for taking the time to look at your transfer switch wiring.  Standing by.

Did you have to deal with the satellite radio antenna on the roof just behind the driver's seat?  If so, how?  Relocated, and if so did you relocate the metal sheet under it (covered in Dicore) too?  See #11 in the attached photo.

Thanks,
Kyle

No, the antenna was not in any way affected.

I have a 2019 FTB, to install a Wingurd Traveler Sat dish in the center of the Rv I had to move the Wifi extender to the front left of the Rv..  Easy 4 screws hold it down, no moving of plates, just lengthen the cables to fit new position.

Interesting.  So you were able to just leave the antenna in place and install the solar panel right over it?  If so, I think that would work for us as we do not use satellite radio.

Any idea what the clearance is between your roof and the bottem of your panels is (or do you know which AMsolar mounting braket [height] was used)?

I need to correct my answer about the satellite antenna. I presume you meant the antenna for the satellite radio. The roof on LTV's site does not show the correct location for the sat. radio antenna. It is actually now in the center, toward the back of the front cap, so it was not in the way.

The clearance for the panels can vary as the feet have three separate holes. Amsolar states the specs for these on their site, but here they are:
Elevation Above Surface
Rocker Mounts
L Foot - 3 Hole (Standard)
MOUNTTL-3
1-1/8”, 1-1/2”, 1-7/8”

See 35mm Rocker Foot Mount Set

I confirmed how it was wired. The transfer switch from the factory has two inputs, one from shore power and the other from the generator. Even though my WonderRTB did not come with a generator, it was wired up as if it had one.

LTV wires the transfer switch's output directly to the AC breaker box. From there, they add a 20 amp circuit for the inverter, and that circuit then powers the inverter, and from there, the inveter's AC output goes to the circuits that are inverted. This is before how they wire them today as current models the microwave is inverted as well, but I would bet that they still wire them the same way. You will know if you see a separate circuit in the breaker box that says "Inverter" on it.

I wanted all circuits inverted with a 3000 watt Victron Inverter/charger. So, as best as I can determine, they disconnected the AC output from the transfer switch and added a new gang box next to it, where they connected that circuit with a new 30amp line that runs to a new 30amp breaker and then to the Victron inverter. They then ran a new 30amp line back to the gang box next to the transfer switch and coupled it with the AC line that had been attached to the transfer switch output to the existing breaker box so all circuits are inverted. The original 30amp inverter breaker in the breaker box is no longer used although that line is still located in the previous area where the original inverter was located but sealed inside a new gang box. I keep the breaker in the off position since it doesn't do anything. I suppose I could add an outlet back there if I wanted to do so quite easily.

The one major difference in this approach is that the Victron inverter must be on in order to power the coach. This is because the inverter will add amps if need be to the load so all the power has to run through it, and then back out to the breaker box where the circuits are protected. However it does not need to be on simply  to use 12vdc, only if 120vac is needed. So when boodocking, energy can be saved by turning off the inverter.

And that's how it's wired. Hope that gives you some ideas to work with.

GM

That is supper clear and makes good sense.  I like that design and its practicality.

I will go with the same.

Thanks VERY much for taking the time to look at your system and share this with me.  Much appreciated!

One correction. The 30amp line from the transfer switch goes to the 30amp breaker in the rear, not the gang box. It comes from the inverter to the gang box near the transfer switch that is then connected to the 30amp line to the breaker box.

And if you think about it, it does make sense if all the circuits are to be inverted. It takes some time getting used to since the inverter has to be on for the ac to work at all. But on the other hand, if you want to kill only the ac, it's very easy. Just click on the OFF switch on the Victron ColorGX display!

I misread your post prior to this one, as I was imagining what you were describing, and I jumped to the conclusion this is what you meant.  Thanks for the clarification!